Flamewar between GenderSupport and Sane Folks

[justanormalgirl.livejournal.com]

EDIT: I talked to Kristin a long time today. She would like to say that she does not condone what steviejayne said. She has de-opped her and has said that anyone who uses the word "shemale" or related will be banned. She apologized in her LJ last month for anti-non-op comments she had made: link (this post was previously friends-only so I didn't see it). She clarified that GenderSupport is only for those looking to discuss genital surgery-related information and thus it is inappropriate for non-ops. She said that she does not consider non-ops men.

---

Today I learned about a group called GenderSupport that recently split off of TSSupport led by kgalway in order to distinguish themselves from non-ops (who they call "shemales" and "men"). So I decided to have some fun, I didn't have to wait long...

(The main points are in bold.)


(14:40:56) The topic for #the-garden is: http://www.theage.com.au/news/science/the-baffle-of-the-sexes/2005/08/27/1124563061846.html
(14:41:00) justanormalgirl left the room (quit: Quit: www.gendersuppor.org).
(14:41:09) You are now known as justanormalgirl
(14:41:19) mode (+v justanormalgirl) by steviejayne
(14:41:23) justanormalgirl: took me a while, i couldn't figure out why "#thegarden" wasn't working ^_^
(14:41:40) justanormalgirl: "hey, i'm the only one here...."
(14:41:41) unmasked_one: Hiya, t------ :)
(14:41:44) justanormalgirl: anyway........
(14:41:49) justanormalgirl: what's up?
(14:42:24) steviejayne: not a lot happening
(14:42:34) justanormalgirl: good times
(14:43:00) steviejayne: ummmmmmmmmm
(14:43:24) steviejayne: i'm still on a high from getting my first referral for surgery last week
(14:43:57) unmasked_one: I am so happy for you :)
(14:44:35) unmasked_one: I'm too busy working to breathe LOL
(14:47:36) steviejayne: i'm determined to make it through now
(14:47:48) steviejayne: but i can't understand those who want to keep their penis
(14:48:49) steviejayne: when you strip a tg down beneath the knickers you get to bare facts - while i'll be a complete woman - a tg will never be anything other than a man
(14:49:12) justanormalgirl: heehee
(14:49:19) justanormalgirl: you said "strip a tg down"
(14:50:21) justanormalgirl: steviejayne: how so?
(14:51:02) steviejayne: get beneath the knickers and a tg will never be anything other than a man
(14:51:37) justanormalgirl: are you distinguishing 'tg' from 'ts' as in "pre-op" vs "post-op"?
(14:52:05) steviejayne: as in "post-op" vs "never-op by choice"
(14:52:27) steviejayne: as in ts - those who WANT to be post-op against those who CHOOSE to remain with their male member
(14:53:42) justanormalgirl: so then there's no visual difference between you and "a man"
(14:54:31) steviejayne: let's face it - a tg who wants to keep his male member will never be anything other than a man
(14:55:07) justanormalgirl: so someone who passes but is non-op is a "man" but someone who doesn't pass but is post-op is a "woman"?
(14:55:15) justanormalgirl: even if they get "sirred"
(14:56:26) justanormalgirl: because i don't see some of these people getting laid, and what's the point of a vagina if you're not using it?
(14:56:50) steviejayne: being complete, being yourself
(14:57:25) justanormalgirl: isn't the point of "being myself" being a woman?
(14:57:49) steviejayne: and a woman has A VAGINA
(14:58:10) justanormalgirl: but not everyone with a vagina is a woman, correct?
(14:59:35) steviejayne: ftm are male
(14:59:51) justanormalgirl: are they men?
(15:00:30) steviejayne: we came here and set this room up to get away from the shemales
(15:00:49) justanormalgirl: define "shemale"
(15:01:30) steviejayne: a person who is so in love with their penis they wish to keep it to have sex as a male and yet have the appearance otherwise of a female
(15:02:02) justanormalgirl: what if you're ambivalent -- you're not in love with it and you're not going to take hedge trimmers to it?
(15:02:42) steviejayne: you mean wish to keep the penis and don't want to be completely female?
(15:04:20) justanormalgirl: my point is that having a vagina is just one part of being female -- if you're missing parts in other areas of your life, you are not female either
(15:04:33) justanormalgirl: s/female/completely female/g;
(15:05:30) justanormalgirl: and the only difference it makes is in sex
(15:05:45) steviejayne: there is a world of difference - and it includes personality
(15:05:58) justanormalgirl: so if you're like, say jenny boylan, and you're not getting any then it doesn't have much of a purpose
(15:06:05) justanormalgirl: how does it include personality?
(15:08:19) steviejayne: personality generally of female and male are different
(15:08:33) steviejayne: but a ts who is prepared to go the whole way is a woman
(15:08:40) steviejayne: regardless of looks
(15:08:59) steviejayne: and a shemale who wants to keep HIS member will never be anything other than a man
(15:09:42) justanormalgirl: how is my personality different whether i have a penis or a vagina?
(15:10:03) steviejayne: that doesn't effect the vagina/penis
(15:10:19) steviejayne: but a shemale will never be anything other than a man in a dress
(15:10:27) steviejayne: wanting the best of both worlds - no thanks
(15:10:43) justanormalgirl: why is a penis better than a vagina?
(15:10:49) steviejayne: the last thing i'd want is to be a chick with a dick
(15:11:16) steviejayne: my argument is that there are male and female
(15:11:26) justanormalgirl: socially, i agree with you -- it makes it hard to meet boys (who aren't chasers) and exposes people to more violence
(15:11:28) steviejayne: female ts are those who have surgery and those who want surgery
(15:11:56) steviejayne: then there are shemales - and those are those who WANT to keep their male member but want everything else female
(15:12:04) steviejayne: but strip them down - they are still MEN
(15:14:39) steviejayne: that will always be my position on this
(15:14:58) justanormalgirl: i'd say my understanding non-ops is that they don't feel they need to have surgery to be women because people accept them as women (they may even be stealth) whereas some people are so fixated on the genitalia they forget about life
(15:15:04) ivy [ivy@gendersupport.29CE6414F28834.TG] entered the room.
(15:15:04) mode (+o ivy) by ChanServ
(15:15:09) steviejayne: hiya ivy
(15:15:22) ivy: mornin
(15:15:48) steviejayne: but my opinion is clear - take a non-op down to the bare essentials - men
(15:16:07) justanormalgirl: i don't understand what you mean by "men" and "women" then
(15:16:41) steviejayne: in my opinion a ts who wants surgery is female
(15:17:04) steviejayne: a non-op who doesn't want surgery - will never be anything other than a glorified tv - aka MAN IN A DRESS
(15:17:57) justanormalgirl: i am objecting that a pre-op "lumberjack tranny" is more of a woman than a non-op stealth woman
(15:18:25) unmasked_one: Hiya Ivy :)
(15:18:27) unmasked_one: *HUGS*
(15:18:50) unmasked_one: that's confusing, t----- :(
(15:19:06) justanormalgirl: how is that confusing?
(15:19:24) justanormalgirl: all i'm saying is that "woman" and "man" are social roles, not genital configurations
(15:19:54) justanormalgirl: or even the presence or absence of the desire for genital surgery
(15:19:59) ivy: hi unmasked_one
(15:20:17) unmasked_one: I don't know...I think there are some fairly distinctive genetic gender roles
(15:20:20) unmasked_one: like propegation
(15:20:28) steviejayne: someone who wants to keep his male member is still a man
(15:20:42) Kisaragi [Pie@gendersupport.1682BC4F8583DC.TG] entered the room.
(15:20:43) justanormalgirl: which isn't possible for any of us (who didn't already propegate or didn't store sperm)
(15:20:52) steviejayne: hiya
(15:20:53) Kisaragi: I heard there was a transphobe in here.
(15:21:02) unmasked_one: right
(15:21:03) steviejayne: transphobe?????????
(15:21:10) unmasked_one: there is?
(15:21:11) unmasked_one: :P
(15:21:23) unmasked_one: wouldn't they have been scared off by now?
(15:21:24) Kisaragi: (15:12:04) steviejayne: but strip them down - they are still MEN
(15:21:37) steviejayne: i'm ts myself
(15:21:39) Kisaragi: That person, who thinks many transsexuals are just men.
(15:21:46) steviejayne: not transsexuals
(15:21:51) steviejayne: transgender - shemales
(15:21:56) steviejayne: ts are women
(15:22:03) steviejayne: or men if they are ftm
(15:22:04) Kisaragi: What seperates a transsexual from a 'shemale'?
(15:22:11) steviejayne: wanting to have surgery
(15:22:25) steviejayne: it's the very principle on which this room was set up
(15:22:29) steviejayne: to be away from the genderfucks
(15:22:47) steviejayne: where genuine ts - who do want surgery - can be in peace away from the men in dresses
(15:22:52) Kisaragi: A gender fuck is someone who purposefully 'fucks' gender, such as a man in a beard walking down the street in a dress.
(15:23:01) justanormalgirl: i'm just a girl
(15:23:11) justanormalgirl: people see me as just a girl
(15:23:13) Kisaragi: Someone who out of purpose, confuses other people.
(15:23:36) unmasked_one: hmmmm
(15:23:42) steviejayne: this is not shemale city - this is A TS ROOM#
(15:23:48) justanormalgirl: personally, i'll probably get surgery -- like i said, it's socially better
(15:23:49) steviejayne: ts as in - those who want surgery
(15:24:02) steviejayne: those who don't want surgery - men
(15:24:07) deb3km [guest@gendersupport.E1951327B863C.TG] entered the room.
(15:24:09) Kisaragi: It's hatemongering to seperate a transsexual by surgery.
(15:24:10) steviejayne: hiya debs
(15:24:21) Kisaragi: Wait, are you upset because the young ones who happen to be non-op are actually cute?
(15:24:33) justanormalgirl: omg! heehee
(15:24:44) unmasked_one: oh good grief
(15:24:45) steviejayne: no - i'm not upset - i'm saying that at the end of the day - a shemale will never be anything other than a man
(15:24:52) deb3km: hi stevie
(15:24:59) justanormalgirl: as for me, i'm a girl
(15:25:00) steviejayne: good to see ya here debs
(15:25:03) justanormalgirl: i'm a teenage transitioner
(15:25:08) steviejayne: how old?
(15:25:08) justanormalgirl: i pass just fine
(15:25:14) justanormalgirl: i'm 20 now
(15:25:33) Kisaragi: Cause, I'm going to break this to you. If you take a post op transsexual who fails to pass and still looks like some freaky male who's crossdressing, that vagina really accomplishes little and that person will be treated as a man.
(15:25:33) Duet [Fluffy@gendersupport.76ADAFABD65A68.TG] entered the room.
(15:25:36) steviejayne: non-ops who choose to retain their penis will still be men at the end of the day
(15:25:41) Kisaragi: People will freak out as that person uses the womens bathroom.
(15:26:05) Kisaragi: They'll give them strange looks saying 'Pssst, that's really a guy!'
(15:26:09) unmasked_one: then you are defining ts by their degree of passability?
(15:26:15) steviejayne: but a shemale IS a guy
(15:26:16) justanormalgirl: whereas for me, i have conversations in the women's bathroom
(15:26:17) unmasked_one: what does that have to do with the core of what makes someone TS?
(15:26:30) Kisaragi: No, I'm saying a TS will be treated and acknowledged as a man if they don't pass.
(15:26:41) Noriko [tenko@gendersupport.88C2F1DD7CCA1.TG] entered the room.
(15:26:44) justanormalgirl: unmasked_one: yes, passability matters, it's the whole point!
(15:26:45) Kisaragi: The core of what makes a TS a TS is a female gender identity.
(15:26:48) unmasked_one: it was never so much a public relations issue with me at all ;)
(15:26:53) Duet: So you're lumping non-ops as shemales? Whoa.
(15:26:53) piklechick [avagoyle@gendersupport.D8B34022DF6729.TG] entered the room.
(15:26:54) deb3km: that person will only be treated as a man because of all the ignorants uneducated bigots who are in society
(15:26:57) Noriko: I <3 dickgirls. :3
(15:26:59) Kisaragi: If you give a normal man SRS, who still thinks he's a man, he's not a woman.
(15:27:04) Kisaragi: Even if he really really did want SRS.
(15:27:36) unmasked_one: hmmmm
(15:27:42) mode (+b *!*@gendersupport.1682BC4F8583DC.TG) by steviejayne
(15:27:47) justanormalgirl: i don't care how much you "feel like a woman", if you don't live as one, you are not one
(15:27:53) justanormalgirl: penis or not
(15:28:01) Kisaragi left the room (Kicked by steviejayne (you are wrong - a ts who has surgery is a WOMAN regardless of looks)).
(15:28:23) steviejayne: anyone else want a kick?
(15:28:26) unmasked_one: hmmmm
(15:28:29) Duet: Even if they're ugly? :/
(15:28:30) deb3km: pmsl
(15:28:31) steviejayne: this invasion is ending now
(15:28:40) mode (+b *!*@gendersupport.76ADAFABD65A68.TG) by steviejayne
(15:28:50) Duet left the room (Kicked by steviejayne (ending the shemale invasion)).
(15:28:54) unmasked_one: I guess I disagree there
(15:28:56) mode (+b *!*@gendersupport.88C2F1DD7CCA1.TG) by steviejayne
(15:29:00) deb3km: there are some really ugly genetic women in the world
(15:29:06) Noriko left the room (Kicked by steviejayne (ending shemale invasion)).
(15:29:21) steviejayne: are you a shemale apologist too piklechick?
(15:29:23) himitsu [m@gendersupport.87295824BBFEF.TG] entered the room.
(15:29:28) unmasked_one: what we are and what we are living can be very different from one another as well
(15:29:30) ivy left the room.
(15:29:30) justanormalgirl: piklechick?
(15:29:33) justanormalgirl: o_0
(15:29:43) unmasked_one: dependent especially upon hateful social pressures
(15:30:06) piklechick: When did you become so hateful stevie?
(15:30:24) piklechick: Starting with the muslims and now other transsexuals.
(15:30:24) steviejayne: i'm not hateful - i'm maintaining the integrity of the room
(15:30:45) mode (+b *!*@gendersupport.D8B34022DF6729.TG) by steviejayne
(15:31:11) unmasked_one: wow, I broke from work at the wrong time
(15:31:27) unmasked_one: hehehehehe
(15:32:01) piklechick left the room (Kicked by steviejayne (steviejayne)).
(15:32:09) himitsu left the room (Kicked by steviejayne (steviejayne)).
(15:32:09) himitsu [m@gendersupport.87295824BBFEF.TG] entered the room.
(15:32:18) himitsu: Why was I kicked?
(15:32:27) steviejayne: sorry - thought you were one of the invasion
(15:32:33) steviejayne: it was an organised invasion
(15:32:38) steviejayne: we had the war the other week
(15:32:39) yasmine: hi all
(15:32:42) himitsu: The war?
(15:32:48) steviejayne: between the rooms
(15:33:35) mode (+v deb3km) by steviejayne
(15:33:41) steviejayne: hiya yas
(15:33:51) unmasked_one: ivy took off :(
(15:33:53) You have been kicked by steviejayne: (steviejayne)